As said by the Anti-Defamation League's report about the increase of anti-Semitism in Spain, support for Palestinian terrorism and anti-Semitic attitudes are frequent during anti-Israeli rallies. This is an example of what we can see during these kind of events here in Spain.
During the summer of 2006, Israel engaged in a war against Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, due to an armed raid through the Israeli-Lebanese border by the Shi'ite terrorist organization, which resulted in the deaths of several Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of two others. During the raid and the subsequent war, Katyusha rockets were intentionally fired by Hezbollah to civilian areas in northern Israel.
During the war, many demonstrations were held worldwide. One of them took place in Spain on Thursday, July 20. This is what many of the demostrators expressed (translations between quotation marks):
1.- "Anne Frank is Palestinian".
2.- "NO MORE HOLOCAUSTS". - The Star of David is equated with the nazi swastika.
3.- "¿WOULD THE PRO-PEOPLE IN POWER CONDEMN THE 'ERRONEOUS' SLAUGHTER OF ISRAELI CHILDREN?" - The slogan "NO TO THE WAR" is also shown. This slogan has been widely used in Spain against the Irak War, which the right-wing P.P. (Partido Popular or People's Party) supported while governing the country, both politically and militarily (notice that both of the P's of "PRO-PEOPLE IN POWER" are a reference to the conservative People's Party). This means that the Irak War was compared with the Israeli military actions during the Second Lebanon War, regardless of the Hezbollah's raid which provoked the Israeli operations in that occasion and the subsequent armed operations against Israel during the clash. It also can be read "The Banks Always Win", which easily could be a reference to the myth of the Jewish economic and financial power.
4.- "STOP the new nazis". - The famous picture of a Palestinian boy throwing a stone to an Israeli Merkava tank is shown. It can also be read "Oleiros with Palestine", being Oleiros a municipality of the province of A Coruña, in Galicia, Spain. The Oleiros' official logo can also be seen under the Palestinian flag. The texts are in this case in Galician, a language mainly spoken in Galicia.
5.- "DOWN THE WALL" and "VIVA THE INTIFADA!"
6.- "Nazis, yankees and Jews, ¡no more chosen peoples!"
7.- "ISRAEL GENOCIDAL. It learnt from nazis."
8.- "Don't let them deceive you! Who votes Hezbollah and Hamas Doesn't want PEACE." - The guy who showed this message against Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist groups encountered this response. He was intimidated and taken into police custody. Among what demostrators shouted to him, we can hear "Who is paying you for coming here to rouse?!", "Nazi!", "Go out!", "Assassin!", "Rouser!", and so on.
About Anti-semitism:
ReplyDeleteWe usually caracterize antisemitic actions for one or more of the following practices:
1. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany.
2. Equating all Jews with Israeli policy.
3. Viewing Israel differently to other countries.
4. Using myths to characterise actions.
I can only disagree with the third assertion, as I think it is in contradiction with the first one. If we hear comparisons with Nazi Germany even with our current government or with certain other regions in Spain everyday on our televisions (examples http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4bcFRX42XQ, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUTXVqgPxOM).
Or comparisons of Nazi Germany with other countries, like Iran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MECFN8SmmKY, http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=166973).
My question is then why cannot people do with Israel (even if I consider it completely exaggerated and unfair but I respect the right) the same we do with any other country or region on earth.
Furthermore, if I take this video from youtube as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxFr7QNEsi8), we could show to Europe that in Spain there is nazism too, even supported by some regional right-wing governments. Is this in your opinion true? Have you noticed that along with the raise of anti-semitism comes an even higher raise in the Islamophobia in our country? Can we extend the blame of some individuals to the whole country or to its government? What is in your opinion our responsibility (or our government's) for the existence of these people and what can we do to fight against them?
The 6,000,000 Jews murdered by the nazis were not Israelis, because Israel itself didn't exist at the time. When those who compare Israel with the Third Reich say that "they're doing to the Palestinians what the nazis did to them", they're "equating all Jews with Israeli policy."
ReplyDeleteMaybe we can talk about different degrees of anti-Semitism; maybe we could (and should) differentiate between a conscious anti-Semitism and a non-conscious one. And of course not every single individual who critize Israel is an anti-Semite (the Israelis constantly do it). But it's irrefutable that a problem of anti-Semitism does exist, and that there are anti-Semites among those who critize Israel.
This has been fully demonstrated during recent clashes such as the Gaza war or the Second Lebanon War, when anti-Semitic incidents increased.
This is the truth, regardless of the fact that a problem of Islamophobia does exist, too.
You don't need to say "they're doing to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to them", you can also say the Israeli massive use of force and manipulation of facts against the Palestinians can be compared to Nazi Germany (the same way Iran or Venezuela can). This should not be considered antisemitism for what I explained before.
ReplyDeleteYou say there is a real problem about anti-semitism. How can we feel the consequences of this problem (what proof there is) and what are the real reasons behind this anti-semitism?
If you have a look at the past, in the Arab and Muslim countries there were very few or zero anti-semitic incidents (unlike in Spain or Russia for example). Jews and Muslims lived in peace in Iraq, Iran, Morocco, Ottoman Empire (Saloniki)... However, it is in 1945 that hard clashes take place in all these places against Jews, as the muslim inhabitants of these regions feel betrayed by the creation of "the Jewish state" and the killing of their "Palestinian brothers". So, the attitudes have more to do with anti-Israeli positions than with anti-Semitic ones and I agree with what you said after the wars in Lebanon and Gaza and the raise in anti-semitism the same way I think the war in Iraq spread anti-Americanism in Europe. Are they anyway respectable? I wouldn’t say so, but as you said, it’s important to look at the motivations behind them if we want to fight against prejudices. How do you think you could convince an Arab from any of these countries to stop hating Jews: Telling him all Jews support the official version of things in Israel (i.e. all Arabs are terrorists that want no peace so Israel will give no peace to them) and whoever doesn’t is either an anti-semite or a self hating Jew, or telling him the Israeli reality is a complicated conglomerate of different political and social points of view, with place for Officialist Zionists, Humanist Zionists, Post-Zionists, Anti-zionists, Kahanists, Pacifists, etc…? Please think about this and the role bloggers like you and Pilar Rahola are playing in the portrayal of Israel and Jews in the world.
Where I wrote 1945, I meant 1948.
ReplyDeleteIt can't be said that Arab and muslim violence began in 1948. In 1929, for example, 67 Hebron's Jews were massacred by Arabs. Should be considered that Israel's independence was the fact which led to the massacre?
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the so-called "peace" among muslims and Jews before Zionism should be put into question. Traditionally, Jews living in Muslim lands, known as dhimmis, were allowed to practice their religion and to administer their internal affairs but they were subjected to certain conditions. They had to pay the jizya (a per capita tax imposed on free adult non-Muslim males) to Muslims. Dhimmis had an inferior status under Islamic rule. They had several social and legal disabilities such as prohibitions against bearing arms or giving testimony in courts in cases involving Muslims.
Furthermore, as you commented in my blog "Midtskogen con Israel", an entire people can't be blamed for the actions of just a few of their members. Even taking into account those human rights abuses attributed to Israel, the idea of Israel's destruction is completely inexcusable and unacceptable.
This also works in the other direction, of course. In fact, most of the Jewish people believes in a two-State solution (according to polls), and Israel's Arabs and muslims enjoy a degree of freedom and rights than their fellows in Arab and muslim countries.
Now answer this question: if Israel's policies alone are responsible for Palestinian ideologically motivated violence, threats and hate against Jews, why this ideology is also shared by Arabs and muslims from countries which were not occupied or attacked by Israel, such as Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain or Pakistan? Why the anti-Semitic incidents are spread even in Western countries such as Norway, Spain or the U.K.?
Please notice that Norway, Spain and the U.K. weren't occupied or attacked by Israel.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your answer.
ReplyDeleteOf course there were "antisemitic" incidents in Palestine before the creation of Israel, the same way there were attacks against the British, against Palestinian villages, etc... It was a time of war and a time of creation of the modern state of Israel, and the Arabs did NOT want foreigners coming into their land. I don't respect that but I can understand the reaction, and for no reasons label it as "anti-semitic".
On the other hand, you can't diminish the role muslim countries have had in sheltering of Jews during all the history. Jews in Spain had their Golden Age during Al-Andalus, Jewish Community in the Ottoman Empire was big and enjoyed many liberties, at least much more than they enjoyed during any Christian regimes we had in Europe at the time and even during the 20th Century.
The answer to your question: To my knowledge, Muslims have a big feeling of belonging to the same community and consider people with the same religion as "brothers" (Jews, by the way, are considered their "cousins"). That is why all these unfortunate clashes with the Jews from Iran, Iraq, Palestine, etc... started even if Israel never did any wrong to them. I DON'T support or justify this in any way (I already said this before), but I think it is good to know the origin of ethnic hatreds.
And about judging an "entire group of people by just the actions of a few of their members". It is not me who is extending a certain vision (right-wing Zionism) to all the Jews. I insist that among the self-called "supporters of Israel" or "supporters of Jews", like Rahola or yourself any reference to any other Jewish organization, group, political party, vision or initiative different to that of the currently governing the State of Israel (be it Likud, Yisrael Beitenu, Shas or Kadima, which share almost the same positions about the conflict). Israel and the Jews of the world are definitely more than that. Or not?
I will ask you again: can I be a supporter of Israel if I don't share this position with them and think Israel should exist but change its policies regarding the conflict?
About your last sentence:
ReplyDeleteThe conflict in the Middle East is really getting everyone fed up in Europe. It is possible that some previously anti-semites use this excuse to insult Israel and the Jews. But it is also possible that people, driven by their anger against some injustices are driven, without even noticing it, to anti-semitism, the same way they were driven into anti-americanism during the Iraq war (when we saw Swastikas near the American flag, Dollars covered with blood, etc...). We must be precise and careful before attacking a whole community of such an important hatred like antisemitism.
I reccommend you to watch the documentary Defamation by the Israeli director Yoav Shamir, about the topic.
About what you mentioned before relating to the Third Reich-State of Israel analogy:
ReplyDeletehttp://midtskogen-israel.blogspot.com/2009/09/sobre-la-analogia-entre-el-tercer-reich.html
Later I'll answer your last two messages, now I'm busy.
So, that Palestinian violence against Jews was not anti-Semitic because they didn't want foreigners there? Well, now let's see:
ReplyDelete1.- Not all the Jews in Palestine before the creation of Israel were foreigners. There was a little Jewish community there, and these Jews were attacked, too (e.g., the 67 Jews slaughtered in Hebron in 1929). Furthermore, those foreign Jews (who went to Palestine after having faced persecution) had sons and daughters, and these ones had sons and daughters, too; these Jews born in Palestine, even taking into account their foreign ancestry, were local population.
2.- During the end of the XIX century and the beginning of the XX century, the rulers of Palestine weren't the Palestinian themselves, but the Ottoman Empire; and the Ottomans were foreigners. But the Palestinian Arabs didn't rejected them.
3.- Already in 1920 anti-Semitic incidents began to happen (such as the Nabi Musa riots). During that time, Jewish violent groups such as Irgun didn't exist yet; until then, the Arabs themselves were selling lands to the Jews (contrary to the popular belief about Jews expelling Arabs from their homes violently).
4.- Until Israel's creation, there wasn't a widespread Arab Palestinian nationalism (i.e., the Palestinian Arabs didn't considered themselves a nation). In fact, the 1947 to 1948 Palestinian Civil War was carried out by the Palestinian Arabs as Arabs, not Palestinians (this term was applied to the Jews and by the Jews themselves). There wasn't an Arab Palestinian nationalism during the Ottoman Empire's rule, including the period of the first steps of Zionism, when this movement was weak. This clearly shows that Arab Palestinian nationalism is just a reaction against Zionism, and nothing else.
5.- So, taking into account the aforementioned points, Arab Palestinian hatred against Jews was based on the Jewish background of those Jews, who wanted a State of their own in which the Palestinians considered Arab and muslim land.
I'm not equating all Jews with right-wing Zionism; that's being done by anti-Israelis, who consider Zionism a religious right-wing ideology.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, and as I explained in this blog before, most of the Israelis want peace through a two-State solution.
Secondly, not all the Israelis vote for right-wing parties; there are also many voters of Kadima and Labor Party.
Thirdly, not all Israelis (eveng among right-wingers) vote for religious parties, which in fact represent a minority; Avigdor Lieberman himself is one of the most prolific supporters of full implementation of civil marriage in Israel. Most of the Israelis see their country as that for the Jewish people, but not in a strictly religious sense of Jewishness, believing in a more laicist Zionism (which is the original branch of this ideology, being the religious factor secondary).
You've written it: many people is becoming anti-Semite without realizing this fact. But that's anti-Semitism and must be fought. You put the example of anti-Americanism, but during the Irak War, Americans weren't fighting for their existence, as Israel does.
“So, that Palestinian violence against Jews was not anti-Semitic because they didn't want foreigners there? Well, now let's see:
ReplyDeleteNot all the Jews in Palestine before the creation of Israel were foreigners. There was a little Jewish community there, and these Jews were attacked, too (e.g., the 67 Jews slaughtered in Hebron in 1929). Furthermore, those foreign Jews (who went to Palestine after having faced persecution) had sons and daughters, and these ones had sons and daughters, too; these Jews born in Palestine, even taking into account their foreign ancestry, were local population.”
Yeah, but they were not the people that had been living there for centuries before Jews arrived. I don’t defend these attacks, of course, this was anti-semitic, but the real clashes and the real anti-Semitism in other arab and muslim countries came after 1948. Before that, the most important anti-Semitism massacres took place in Russia, Ukraine, Germany, Spain… but never in the Arab and Muslim countries, where Jews were active and accepted part of society.
“During the end of the XIX century and the beginning of the XX century, the rulers of Palestine weren't the Palestinian themselves, but the Ottoman Empire; and the Ottomans were foreigners. But the Palestinian Arabs didn't rejected them.”
Well, Ottomans had been there since 1516, and you know the Ottoman Empire was a conglomerate of vilayets (almost as a confederation) where differences and local governments were respected. If the Arabs were ok with the Ottomans it was their decision. The Ottomans were in Greece, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Romania, Albania… and no one discusses nowadays the right of these countries to exist as sovereign states because they did not “reject” them.
“Already in 1920 anti-Semitic incidents began to happen (such as the Nabi Musa riots). During that time, Jewish violent groups such as Irgun didn't exist yet; until then, the Arabs themselves were selling lands to the Jews (contrary to the popular belief about Jews expelling Arabs from their homes violently).”
Yes, but this does not contradict the fact that in 1948 there were expulsions from ancient Palestine (700.000 as Morris and others state) and this was the fact that shocked the Arab and Muslim nations and originated the extension of Antisemitism to countries were Jews had lived in peace for centuries. I insist that I do not want to blame Israel now for it. It was a war and Arabs also massacred Jews that had been living there since the 19th Century.
“Until Israel's creation, there wasn't a widespread Arab Palestinian nationalism (i.e., the Palestinian Arabs didn't considered themselves a nation). In fact, the 1947 to 1948 Palestinian Civil War was carried out by the Palestinian Arabs as Arabs, not Palestinians (this term was applied to the Jews and by the Jews themselves). There wasn't an Arab Palestinian nationalism during the Ottoman Empire's rule, including the period of the first steps of Zionism, when this movement was weak. This clearly shows that Arab Palestinian nationalism is just a reaction against Zionism, and nothing else.”
Yes, I completely agree with you on this. It is the same way, American native peoples did not have a conscience as a nation, a conglomerate of many nations, or even less a country until the Europeans wanted to create a new country on their lands. This does not, however, take out any legitimacy to their right over the place they had inhabited for millennia.
“So, taking into account the aforementioned points, Arab Palestinian hatred against Jews was based on the Jewish background of those Jews, who wanted a State of their own in which the Palestinians considered Arab and muslim land.”
This is exactly what I stated before. Muslims were against Israel, not against Jews, and if nowadays they are against Jews it is driven by the existence of Israel and what they consider as brutalization of the Palestinians. I think this is important to bear in mind if we really want to change Muslim and Arab attitudes against Jews.
“I'm not equating all Jews with right-wing Zionism; that's being done by anti-Israelis, who consider Zionism a religious right-wing ideology.”
ReplyDeleteWhen in any of your posts in this or your other blog have you posted any information of left-wing or other ideology that is not the official Zionism? When in any of your posts have you posted any information that does not come from the Israeli embassy or the typical foreign right-wing supporters? When have you posted information about any of the Israeli popular initiatives for peace and coexistence with the Arabs (which are sometimes even more effective than the political initiatives)? This is the important point.
If you talk about Israel and about Zionism and only post one version of the story, then you are the one omitting facts about Israel, Zionism and Jews. If you for example say all Jews, all Israel and all Zionists want a united Jewish Jerusalem, when surveys, some political parties and some peace organizations say just the opposite in Israel, then you’re the one extending your ideology to people that do not share it with you at all.
If you, for example, portray Netanyahu as really for peace and a true representative of Israel (against the bad Arabs who do not even want to talk to him directly), when there are demonstrations every week against his policy of settlements and many Israeli organizations are becoming really active in denouncing how his policies are completely against any possible peace process, when there are Israeli peace organizations which are themselves in contact with the current Palestinian government, etc… you are the one omitting part of the story and presenting only the official version as the only version, and thus presenting the only version as that of the current right-wing government.
“First of all, and as I explained in this blog before, most of the Israelis want peace through a two-State solution.”
Did I say they didn’t? What I think is their governments do not really want this and manipulate many of their citizens.
Secondly, not all the Israelis vote for right-wing parties; there are also many voters of Kadima and Labor Party.
Did I say “all” Israelis vote for right-wing? (My point is just the opposite!!!!) Kadima is almost as right-wing as the others when it comes to the conflict. Labour has very subtle differences. None of them is left-wing or has a clear stance against the settlements or the following of a determinate Peace Process.
On the other hand, of course. Zionism is mainly a non-religious movement. There are hard right-wing ideologies that have nothing to do with religion, though.
ReplyDelete“You've written it: many people is becoming anti-Semite without realizing this fact. But that's anti-Semitism and must be fought. You put the example of anti-Americanism, but during the Irak War, Americans weren't fighting for their existence, as Israel does.”
Americans weren’t fighting for their existence? I would like to hear you discussing this with George Bush or his American fellows who thought they were fighting their most fierce enemies to them and to the civilized world (the “axis of evil”) who, in their opinion, had caused them more deaths than Israelis have died in war in all history (Twin Towers attack). Furthermore, to me bombing Gaza was not fighting for Israel’s existence. To me, bombing Beirut in 2006 was not fighting for Israel’s existence. Israel exists since 1948. That is an irrefutable fact. You can say they were strategic attacks to defend Israel, but be reasonable, a few Qassam rockets are NOT threatening the existence of Israel.
Anyway, we are talking about European attitudes against this or that country. My point is that Israel is not the only country which faces European hate, and that it is not, by far, only originated by anti-semitism but by a confusion of Israel with the Jewish people, and of Israel with their government. We must definitely “fight” against this, in the same way we must fight against the generalization of Islam as a religion of hate, war and women’s brutalization. In this fight, however, the pen is mightier than the sword.
I'd be as Palestinian as you would if both of us were born in Palestine, being your ancestors Palestinians and being my ancestors Ukrainians.
ReplyDeleteI explained that anti-Semitism was present in Arab and muslim societies before Ziosnim arrived to Palestine (including Palestine) and I put examples.
Furthermore, I explained the main reason of Arab Palestinian acceptance of the Ottomans and rejection of the Jews: the Ottomans weren't Jews, while the Jews were.
Have the Palestinian Arabs the right to reject Zionism? Yes. But they haven't the right to throw Jews into the sea just because they want a country of their own while being Jews.
Responsibility for the 1948 Palestinian exodus must be shared by both Israelis and Arabs, as Benny Morris and Arab leaders have stated. In fact, not all of those Palestinian Arabs were expelled by Israelis or Arabs; many leaved their homes because of the fear they experienced due to the fights they witnessed and alleged or real acts of Jewish brutality (according to a U.N.'s report which I'll link in a future article).
I never tried to tell that an Arab Palestinian State shouldn't be created, I tried to make clear the Arab Palestinian hypocrisy: they consider themselves a nation just because the Jews want their own State.
There are muslims against Jews because of Zionism, but:
1.- Anti-Semitism is never justifiable, specially when it consists of exterminating almost all Jews.
2.- If those muslims begin to hate Jews because of Zionism, it's because Zionsim proposes a Jewish State; to consider that the Jews don't have the right to create their own State because they're Jews, is anti-Semitism.
According to polls, most of the Israelis want peace through a two-State solution, and many Palestinians also want that. I explained it before, that's what I support and I think many left-wing Zionists believe in that, I think. I even admit that human rights abuses were committed by Israel (as Israel's Ambassador to Spain and Israeli tribunals do).
ReplyDeleteI never told that all of the Jews want a united Jerusalem, I never told that Netanyahu has peaceful propositions only and I never told I'm in favour of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, so I don't tell just one version of the facts as you say.
Those who deny that most of the Israelis want peace are those who contantly critize Israel; they have almost the same vision of the Palestinians. How many times is denounced that Israel acts like nazis or the now defunct South African apartheid regime? How many times are the Palestinians protrayed as a peaceful people who just want peace, blaming Israel and solely Israel for what is happening? How many times is denied Israel's initiatives towards peace? How many times is Israel's guilt extremely exaggerated? That's what I try to denounce here and nothing else.
Qassam rockets can't destroy Israel, but Qassam rockets are intended to damage Israel's security. And what about Arabs military actions against Israel, during the 1948 to 1973 period? So Israel is at war, because its existence and security are in danger.
Your problem is that you think that because I denounce Spanish attitudes against Israel and the Jews I support every single Israeli measure. That would be like acccusing me of being in favour of the Irak War just because I critize anti-Americanism and most of its inherent exaggerated accusations, including false ones; or it would be like accusing me of being in favour of Franco's dictatorship just because I critize republican human rights abuses during the 1936 to 1939 Spanish Civil War.
And that's not fair, I think.
I wasn't talking about you when I explained that not all Israeli Jews vote for right-wing parties and that most of them want peace through a two-State solution, I was contradicting the popular belief of most of my fellow compatriots.
Israel is one of the most hated countries in Spain, while there are many countries with worse attitudes towards human rights, and that's unacceptable to me.
ReplyDelete“I'd be as Palestinian as you would if both of us were born in Palestine, being your ancestors Palestinians and being my ancestors Ukrainians.”
ReplyDeleteThis would be in a perfect society where people would accept anyone, but you know people usually reject foreigners, and this is also valid for us Spaniards. In fact, in another post you were supporting a guy who was warning us about the Islamization of Spain and Europe calling it Eurabia. Imagine that the same things were those happening in Palestine when Jews started emigrating there (even if they did pay for their land and most of them lived in peace with Arabs). I’m not trying to justify this in any way, I insist, it was completely unfair. But I’m just trying to show you that it is not an isolated event that took place just because the newcomers were Jews. I told you that Muslims have even more respect for Jews than for Christians when it comes to religious matters.
“Furthermore, I explained the main reason of Arab Palestinian acceptance of the Ottomans and rejection of the Jews: the Ottomans weren't Jews, while the Jews were.”
Come on, the Ottomans had been there since the 16th century, the Ottomans were Muslim, and the Ottomans did not impose any language, culture or anything on Palestinians (I am not saying Jews did, but Jews were a real different culture, in fact Western culture more than anything).
“Have the Palestinian Arabs the right to reject Zionism? Yes. But they haven't the right to throw Jews into the sea just because they want a country of their own while being Jews.”
Well, if Jews want a country only for Jews in territories that are inhabited by Arabs, I wouldn’t say they have any right to do this. I consider this definitely colonization.
“I never tried to tell that an Arab Palestinian State shouldn't be created, I tried to make clear the Arab Palestinian hypocrisy: they consider themselves a nation just because the Jews want their own State.”
Hypocrisy? How can you be Hypocrite about that? You mean is some kind of jealousy of their neighbours? You mean there is no reason for Arabs to want self-rule? Then could we say Basques and Catalans are also jealous of Israel…? I don’t get you on this one.
“1.- Anti-Semitism is never justifiable, specially when it consists of exterminating almost all Jews.”
I never said or implied it is justifiable. Of course I agree with you on this one.
“2.- If those muslims begin to hate Jews because of Zionism, it's because Zionsim proposes a Jewish State; to consider that the Jews don't have the right to create their own State because they're Jews, is anti-Semitism.”
This is completely false, mate. Check your sources. Many Jews are anti-Zionist and they live freely their culture in Israel or anywhere else in the world and even their religion. On the other hand, the conception of Israel as a Jewish state is only one of the different conception that includes Zionism. My pseudonym is that of a man who, with Albert Einstein and others, dreamed about a state for the Jews, but not a state of Jews in a land that was already inhabited by Muslim and Christian Arabs (i.e. an impossible dream which still some Israelis and world Jews don’t seem to realize as that). And they were still Zionists.
“According to polls, most of the Israelis want peace through a two-State solution, and many Palestinians also want that. I explained it before, that's what I support and I think many left-wing Zionists believe in that, I think. I even admit that human rights abuses were committed by Israel (as Israel's Ambassador to Spain and Israeli tribunals do).
ReplyDeleteI never told that all of the Jews want a united Jerusalem, I never told that Netanyahu has peaceful propositions only and I never told I'm in favour of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, so I don't tell just one version of the facts as you say.”
Oh, come on… Netanyahu is on the article on top of your page, presented as a man who only wants to talk face to face (you don’t even mention why the PA rejects to accept it…) Above you just talked about the hypocrisy of the Palestinians because they want a state like the Israelis… You also say that Palestinians in East Jerusalem are offered Israeli citizenship and they reject it, as though Israel was doing a good fact by invading territories… you never mentioned any reprehensible act committed by the Israeli government or even implied there was any…
“Those who deny that most of the Israelis want peace are those who contantly critize Israel;”
False. Those who deny that most Israelis want peace are those who talk in the name of Jews and Israelis and present “their” reality as the only reality and present “their” ideology as the only ideology in Israel, omitting any other viewpoint very present in this country.
“How many times is denied Israel's initiatives towards peace?”
Which ones and when? Israel’s initiatives are not (only) Israeli government’s initiatives. You only talk about Israeli government’s initiatives (which are currently inexistent, by the way) but omit all the other popular initiatives very present in the country, so you are the one denying them.
“How many times is Israel's guilt extremely exaggerated?”
If Israel’s guilt is exaggerated there is a huge amount of Israeli and international neo-con lobbies like AIPAC, ADL and others that will immediately denounce it, as they are currently with the demonization of Justice Goldstone. We do not need more information from anyone who has beforehand decided to “defend a country” whatever its government and political class is.
“Qassam rockets can't destroy Israel, but Qassam rockets are intended to damage Israel's security. And what about Arabs military actions against Israel, during the 1948 to 1973 period? So Israel is at war, because its existence and security are in danger.”
Its security might be in danger, its existence is not, by no means. Israel is the 4th biggest army in the world with strong ties with the first (USA) and every country in the Western world.
“I wasn't talking about you when I explained that not all Israeli Jews vote for right-wing parties and that most of them want peace through a two-State solution, I was contradicting the popular belief of most of my fellow compatriots.”
But how on earth are they supposed to know about other (left-wing, pacifist) opinions if you say you support all Israelis and Jews and never talk about them (as though left-wing or pacifist were not Jews or Israelis) and only post those opinions and facts provided by the Israeli right-wing parties, the Israeli Embassy and its foreign “supporters”???? This is the point of my posts here. You’re presenting only the wrong Spaniards to Europe and only the wrong Israelis to Spain. You are in fact the one enraging things in both sides.
Probably we should start telling people that their opinions are also present in Israel and among Israelis, that Israel is not a country with an only ideology and that Jews are much more than Israel and its errors. This therefore includes talking about Israeli criticism from within, Israeli political reality and popular Israeli peace initiatives.
ReplyDeleteFor example, if Jews think all Iranians support Ahmadineyad they will feel fear and hatred every time they see an Iranian. If they know more about the reality in this country, they realize Iran is not Ahmadinejad’s country, but a complex country with many different political visions (that are currently unfortunately silenced and brutalized) and a country that even includes Jews, they might see Iranian citizens with other eyes, despite their unfortunate government.
"This would be in a perfect society where people would accept anyone,..."
ReplyDeleteNow I can't remember who is that guy. But my goal in this blog is to denounce what I consider a biased and unjust treatment of Israel and the Jews in Spain, not to denounce the alleged Islamization of Europe.
I wrote about abuses against Jews under Arab and muslim rule during centuries. That denotes anti-Semitism; the conflict between Jews and Arabs only triggered that hate.
"Come on,..."
The Ottomans didn't impose anything just because the Palestinian Arabs didn't care about Ottoman rule. Do you thing that a hypothetical Palestinian Arab resistance would have changed anything?
Furthermore, when talking about freedom, Palestinian Arabs enjoy much more of it under Israeli rule than under Ottoman rule.
"Well, if Jews want a country only for Jews..."
The Jews want a country of their own, but that doesn't mean that minorities are not allowed into the country. As I wrote before, freedom for Arabs and muslims are higher under Israeli rule than under Arab and muslim rule.
"Hypocrisy?"
That hypocrisy consists of creating a sense of nationhood not because Palestinian Arabs really had been sharing it during centuries, but because the Jews wanted to create a State of their own in their ancestral home after centuries of persecution.
"This is completely false, mate. Check your sources. Many Jews are anti-Zionist..."
Yes, those Jews are not anti-Semites. But why? Because the last reason they'd give you in order to delegitimize Israel's right to exist is "Just because we are Jews and nothing else."
"Oh, come on…"
ReplyDeleteWhen writing about Netanyahu, my intention was not to portray Netanyahu as a man of peace, but to denounce why Mahmoud Abbas is not subjected to the same treatment when he don't want to talk directly.
"Above you just talked about the hypocrisy of the Palestinians because they want a state like the Israelis…"
The Palestinians don't want a State like the Israelis. Israeli Jews need their State to protect themselves, while Palestinian Arabs began to demand their State just to avoid the creation of that State, in a place the Palestinian Arabs themselves didn't want a State of their own.
"you never mentioned any reprehensible act committed by the Israeli government or even implied there was any…"
False. As I wrote before:
"I'm not an expert on penitentiary discipline, but as far as I'm concerned, in all countries around the world punishments like isolation are applied to prisoners who take part in acts of disobedience. Maybe some of the measures applied by Israel are wrongful ones, but many others are perfectly justified."
http://spain-israel-jews.blogspot.com/2010/04/more-lies-about-israel-are-told.html
I also wrote in favour of the theory of Israel's involvement in the 1948 Palestinian exoudus.
"False. Those who deny that most Israelis want peace are those who talk in the name of Jews and Israelis and present 'their' reality as the only reality and present 'their' ideology as the only ideology in Israel, omitting any other viewpoint very present in this country."
That was your conclusion. I never tried to tell that anybody in Israel wants the same. That's completely false. And remember that article published by El País in which Israelis are portrayed as a non-peaceful people:
http://spain-israel-jews.blogspot.com/2010/03/spanish-media-demonizes-israel-again.html
And this is an example.
"Which ones and when? Israel’s initiatives are not..."
Peace initiatives by political leaders: Jewish Agaency's acceptance of the Partition Plan (which included an Arab State); Ehud Barak's proposal of a Palestinian State with some East Jerusalem's areas included (in the year 2000); 2005 territorial disengagement plan by Ariel Sharon (intended to be a first step towards peace).
Peace initiatives by others: most of the Israelis have shown their desire to achieve peace through a two-State solution. There's a very good Israeli film titled "The Bubble" which talks about peace. And I saw a documentary about two Israelis (one female and one male) and two male Palestinians who engage in conversations with groups of Israelis and Palestinians in favour of peace... face to face (;D). I think it's titled "Beyond the Wall", but now I'm not sure.
"If Israel’s guilt is exaggerated there is a huge amount of..."
And if there are organizations like B'Tselem and Ir Amim which denounce human rights abuses committed by Israel, why should I denounce those abuses, specially considering that my goal here is to denounce other things?
"Its security might be in danger, its existence is not, by no means."
Between 1948 and 1973, Israel was about to be destroyed several times. When Israel needed to act in self-defense in 1967, the American Administration tried to avoid it.
"But how on earth are they supposed to know about other (left-wing, pacifist) opinions if you say you support all Israelis and Jews and never talk about them (as though left-wing or pacifist were not Jews or Israelis) and only post those opinions and facts provided by the Israeli right-wing parties, the Israeli Embassy and its foreign 'supporters'????"
My compatriots could know how the Israelis really are if Spanish media weren't so biased and unjust against Israel. And my ideas and sources are not those of the right-wing Zionists exclusively.
"Probably we should start telling people..."
ReplyDeletePopular peace initiatives? How many times did I write about Israeli popular desire for peace? How many times did I put into question so many accusations against Israel based on unreasonable grounds?
That should be enough: to demostrate that Israelis, regardless of what party wins the elections, want peace.